tv Charlie Rose PBS January 20, 2010 11:00pm-12:00am EST
rose: welcome to the broadcast. toght, one of the richest men in the world wit a jor investmentn amicanompanies prince alwaleed bin tal. this is an ierview that was done on friday of last week. >> politicly, financially, with the crisis you're in right now, new a mess. new a ss in the united stes, have to be honest with you. i love thenited states, i mire the united states. >> rose: and you're heavily invested he. >> yes,the united states is t leader of the world. it's going to be t leader of the world formany years to come. forget china's going to come out you'reown. >> rose: thameans? >> when you have a coury has $14 trillion of cumulive debt and its g.d.p. around $14 million and both competin that's not good. >> rose: debt or d.p.? >> yes. and wn youave a buet deaf sit of a trillion dolrs going for the foreseeable fuer, it's unacceptable.
from our studios in w york city, is is charlie rose. rose: princeal alwaleed bin talal is here. 's chairman of the kickdom investment company. "forbes" ranks him asne of the wod's 25ost wlthiest ople. "tim mazine dubbed him the arabian warren buett. his fi has major stakes in banks, hotel and mea coanies. his largest vestment is in citigroup, t bank where he's the largest shareholder the econom crisis has taken a toll on hi holdings. heecently injected nearly600 llion of his personalealth into his firm after a year of steep losses. s interests are not confined to business. king abdullah osaudi arabia is his uncle a he is a member of
the royal fami. i'm eased to have amore the studio for a conversation about m and his investment and how he sees the world. welcome. >> pleasure to be withyou, charlie rose, again. rose: my first psh. first how yosee the global economic recovery from yo where you look at it in saudi arabia. and arnd the world. >>ell, the world economy is just beginning to co out of a world crisis. almost catastropc that began me time in summerf 2007. this crisis is unmatched but it uld have been worse if the governme did not have this concerted effort that helped us stable ties situation sehow. thing things a not improve bug theyre stabilizing and we ha thempression that theorst is over. >> so you stopped t decle.
>> t question rht now is it going to be an l-shaped situation or... it's notgoing to be have-shaped recovery for sure but i hope that the l is going to be at least eu. rose: what factors are at work in determining the nure of theecovery. >>ell, we see inhe some of the banks iested. we seen the our hotels and companies. weee the demand is cing back slowly but surely. we see theesults in the company inhe united states, in europe, we are seeing the civization where the worst is over. there are indication it i worst is over. >> y are confident that citioup is back on the road to what? >> i met vikm, the c.e.o. and i t the chairman and we had a very goo healthy diussion th them about t past tw year vikram inherited that from the previo management. >> re: he has your confidenc >> vikm if you follow what he has be doing in the pt two years or, so he's been met tick
will louse and delivering on all his promises. i toldim openly that the honeymoon is over ght now. he'sntrenched, we havehe ople all entrencd in the position i think 2010 and twaef you have to perform and begin they willing thworld that cigroup's franchise is unie. you have a total of 140 countrie it's unmatched. theecond-biggest global bank is arou 70 countes at present. i believe vikram is on the right track. i'm telling him you have to deliver and perform if 2010. >> ros 2010 you have to deliver >> yes, as shareholders wve been very patientl but i believe vikram can deliver. we're stilwaiting for the government to ll its stake of around $25 billn some time in 2010 without impacng the share
price. >> rose: what do you ink about what the president sai yestery? >>'m against that. many ofhose banks with few exceptions has gonehrough crisisnd the patient was in intense care unit, i.c.u. and while banks are coming ou of this i.c.u. you hit them with another tax that could a billi dolls? i believe it' premature d unwarranted. there are many ways to stop th bas from having these extravagant bonuses. >> rose: how wouldou pay back the erican taxpayers who save the nks? >> t final tally has not been done yet. many banksaid their tarp money and it t tally is not known yet. th say it' between $50 and $100 bilon. if they want to have it repaid they can do it but not cessarily at this time the u.s. budt deficit runng in tens of millionsf dollarand
the cumulativdebt is $13 o $14 trillion. another $50 billion isn't going to hurt. i believe 's more of iebt against those banks th are still giving extravagant bonuses i think there areany ways to do it without slapping them with this eraordinary tax. >> bu youhink they should d somethinto restrict the bonuses that were beinpaid before t economic crisis? >> no one's against bonuses b bonus ve to be linked to performance and for long ter you can not have bonus given for those managerg who go by short-term w where the bank can be hurt. there has to be a megaisim i and agreement beeen regulato and bas whereby this thing has evolved without enforcing adtional tax on thosebanks. rose: you're also a huge investor in newscorp.
are yocomfort with their future? >> i met withr. rupert murdoch. i'm second biggest sha holder there. no doubt newscorp is moving in a big fron you've seen how foxrating is skyrocketing. fox busiss is beginning to improve and the atar movie, this thing really... science fiction. >> re: have you seen the movie >> i had to see it before i meet mr. murdoch and tell him i saw it. i saw it, yes. >> rose: did you like the movie? >> well,he first er i see a sciee fiction movie. what i sd is i like the fact that people li it an you're going to gss around two the million billion dollars from it. imagine that. two billion dollarsgross and the bottom le $40 million bottom line. so i'm happy for these rests. whether i like it or not i'l
ke it between and mr. murdh. >> rose: is james murdoch the successor to rupert? >> james inow managing urine d asia. and i don't lieve he appointe them b if he doesn't appoint him i'll be the first one to nominate him to behe successor of mrrupert murdoch. >> rose: he's yr candidate >> iave full trust in him and he's cable he'upert myrrh dmok the making and he's almost there now. >> rose: that's someind endorsement ming from you. >> at the end of the day, rupert muoch's companys the ly globalompany that covers over five continent >> ros you're in t travel business, too. you have hotels. we have hotels. >> rose: are you confidentbout the travelusiness and are you confident abouthe hotel
business? >>ur investment isin the fr season brand. we own it through cascade,ur partners, bill gates company cascade. we have sss hotel. so all those bras, among them we hav around 300 hui tells in the four, five and x-star brds. yes, we are eing in the case right now of pickup in all the hotels across e globe. what you're sayi is... 's th number one hotel for the la seven years. that's where you interviewed me last te. so, yes, it's a force tobe reckon with andit's almt second proof th the impt was almost minim in the last three years. >> rose:o what do y wry about? >> we always worry aboutany things in this world. clearly the biggest world for every human being in the world is trorism. this is .. it's clear the last event when this somali terrorist was on this plane, nthwest airplane heading to the uned statesrom rope, god forford if this plane exploded
abov detroit that would have be catastrophic. thank gothey were saved. i ink we have to be very careful on that and not be lax lenient abt the threat of terrorism still prevailing over the world. en saudi arabia we have that threat. >> rose: you clely have that threat isubpoena. >> you bet. >> rose: and we've... youe beenore aggrsive about opposing terrori than in the past >> no doubt. saudi arabia has faced lot of acts of terrosm but thankgod the past twoears we didn't have a single act of terrorism. i believe that we are rlly flushing them out right now beforeny act of terrori was committed. and i commend the unit states. you know, even agast bush... but unr the bus administraon, no terrorist event to place after 9/11 and i think under obama and i hope this will continue also. >> rose: wn you look at iraq and the americans onlying out of iraq,opefully, and you look at afghanistando you worry about the possibilitieof things going ong in there? >> no doubt iq is a time bomb.
pakistan is a me bomb also. clearly we c see th ira.. we are seeing clear dications of stilization >> rose:n iraq. >> iq for sure. we are seeing elements of stabilization, there a still bombs and explosions and some terrorist actsere and there, buall in all, there's an imprement. ill, very incremenal improvement. we're not there yet. afghanistan, this countryould implode reay a with pakistaneighboring it right now, youe seeing there also that there's a l of deabilizing elements by the liban. so thesere important elemes for the internation security. >>ose: you know well that the president of syria a you have a hotethere as well. many people believe that syria could play a important role. on the other hand, as you kw, syria give a lot of support to hazard, hamas, hezllah, es
syriintent to play a positive role in the ddle east peace process between the palestinians and thesraelis? >>et me assur you and le me give you a quote from my iend the that. assad h all tentions to have peace in the regionith isrl d has all intentions to have the palestinians ve peace and ve in peace wit israel. and, you know, in the past, you know, the united states wa agnst him, france wasgainst m, saudi arabia was against him,e was isolated. he hado choi now go to iran. right now are seeing his links now with the united states his links with franznd saudi arab. they were justn saudi arabia la wednesday. so wwere getting them back. so really we are sing very good indications to lp the pee process not only between him and isel, between hi and between the lestinians and israelis also. i can assure you tha bashar is goi to play a b role in getting the pee process ving.
>> rose: ithere some counication through tkey? although there was mmunication between turkey then aftethe gaza invion that kindof disappeared. subpoena he still reptiveo some communication with the raelis? >> aually his spogshat i will only go rough tury. as you rightedly said. he would only negotiate through rael with you are the any the meanwhil israel wou like to have that negotiation with him. his position bhar, ishat he would like to have negotiation through turkey as s been in the ca in the past two years or so. >> rose: i justad a long hour afrgs here and an inresting coersation with george mitchell. >> iawhat. what. >> rose:hat's your own assessment of sething happening rael and the paleinians? >> look, mitchell is a forcto be reckoned with. mitchell w the main anchor of the peac process that took place in the very complicated
iris.. >> rose: exactlyright. >> ...vil war. and he was able manage to t this tng to io apeaceful process. believe that presidenobama and mrs. hillaryclinton has to look more attention to the mile east. i believe th attention mr. obamhas put on health care and the st year and the economy, i believe the middle east is the core problem. not fronl the middle east, but with all t side effects, the terrorists acts and althe things that really... this nesz to be resolv as soon as possible. >>ose: it cleay needs the involvement of tarab neighbors and saudi arabi and egypt and others, jordan, to a force tt's willing to te risk. what's gng with the arab neighbors? >> the arab summit,hen they net lebanon unimously, 22
countries-or 21 countries- have adoptedkingbdullah's... conferen abdullah's iniative to anowledge the presence of israel and even estabsh diplomatic relationsith them. rose: every country wants to establish depthirelations. >> isrl did not really step that position yet. i thinkf israel wants to have peace they c have peace within a mth two with theounterpart in syria and palestineto be honest withou. rose: you thi they can have peace... but just last week there was some shelling from gaza into israel. inderstand. isra is a stronger party israel is a dominant force in the meese. we all know it has the bgest military armthere, it has the... hasuclear mbs. so no one's going to touch israel. isel isntouchable. now if israelan get its house in oer and have... >> rose: what doou mean by get
its housin order? >> becau the netanyahu gornment has some folks that there thato not wanto have peace with the palestinians. >>ose: you mean the foreign minist? >> wel i mean some people in e government. remember when sadat went to plooinnd he gave a peach over therand look what happened. so i think if you have a good strongikud party and netanhu is a likud party membehe can do what beg did. and we're so close in gettin a peace eaty. we're talking aboua couple hundre of meters. >> what separates with bashar and assad, t president of syria, and what negotiations ma be taking placehrough turkey or wrever. what separates th possibility? it a... >> it's a small piece of land th really... >> rose: on e gol heights? >> exactly. the golan heights. it's very technical at could be resold if there was a will from the iselis.
>> rose: what does heeed from the israeli to make deal? >> he was his land bk, period. his land was taken with him. period. this is syrian land. the gon is syrian. period. >> re: what are his intentions with respect to lebano >> i think lebanon situation is overight now. he pulled out his troops fm lebanon. he had eleions. you ve right now a president duly eleed by the parlment. yohave right now a prime minist who's the son of e on.. and guess what? hariri numr two visited syr and had three separate meings tete-a-tete th bash. so this is the issue of lebanon andyria is oth and behind us right now. r him to go there and visit them, th is ver courageous for th to take that move. >> rose: doou think it woul be a wise thing for hazard to give up its wpons and just mply engage in the polital process in >> no doubt. the offici position of saudi arabia and any prudent person, you're. you can n have one nation, no way.
>> rose: but syria would have fluence with hezbollah. i mean, th haveignificant influence with hezbollah in leban. >> b hezbollah is very independent, really, and ty ta the power reall from iran. let's be ry blunt about tha his. but the power and the supply of l the tools, all t military equipmentomes... all the money comes from iran. this is reall.. a situaon that'seen exaggerated by the iranians and look what iran has done by supporting theeople in saudi arabi and yemen. so really iran is not plang helpful role at all not only the united state the whole communy... >> rose: s what should be done abt iran? >> i think a very firm position has to be taken agast iran by the united states. a lot firmer than what it is righnow and really box them in. >> rose: okay. but then lay out a licy that yowould like to see the united states initiate whichhe arab world would pport vis-a-vis iran. >> well, i think on iran i think
you have to engage wh them. like you engag with... >> rose: it hard to engage with them right now because of th internal split between... >> you have to see what's going to happen internally right now wt's happening in iran rht now remin us of the pre-revolution era when the shah ofran was forced and khoini me and took over. so there are indications that th may happen: so i don't think t united states c do anything right now. i think yohave to wait until the wholthing subside in themeanwhile, you have t engage with them and mrkhomeini mrahmadinejad is now th duly elected president of iran. so we'retill waiting for the dust to set over the. >> re: you have peop who talk to people w talk to people. do you belie ahmadinejad will survive or.. what do you think will happen to the reform movement? mr. most most? >> the way he's handlinthe opponents iseally a ver savage way.
it like the shah oran. so to me it's deja vu. so w don't really knowow... >> rose: so wha should the wes do and what should the arab countriedo who worry about the regimen iran? should they be more supportive of mr. moussui and the reform grp? >> you he tongage with ahmadinejad becaus you're going to fuel thepposition... u're goin to fuel thosellies of ahmanejad even more. >> rose:hmadinejad will say that t reformovement is tie to t west or is tied to our enemies d therere... >> yes. u have to engage ahmadinejad, no doubt about that. heas no choice until you e what happens in iran it's going to be. are you going to have system like we had during the shah ofiran wheby omeini came to power? we have see. things are vy bad iniran. very bad. >> rose: you think there will be
another civil tar? >> that believe the hegemy and the strengt of and the power and the prestige of t ruler over there, m khamenei, habeen iacted badlyight w. so i'm not re he can really hold to power a lot longer. i've seen early indication of the disintegration of the regime and that's my personal view. >> rose: doyou think the world's perceptionf islam is misunderstood? >> oh, yes. fosure. i mean... >> rose: you've ven a signifant amount of money for an islamic center at the louvre in paris. and >> and georgetownand harvard and cambridge. >> rose: exactly, exactly. and you're doing thatecause what? >> after 9/1 the wld has changed and islam camender atta and to a ctainxtent rightly so. because you had all these terrorist acts against united
stat soil in n york committeby muslimsnd arabs and more particularly saudis. so i don't blame the west by really being worrie about islam. but this profili issue should not really be on the table. you cannot generalize and say "all arabs" "all muslims are terrorists." >> rose: clearly you cannot say that. >> so i think we're doing to bridge the gap by having centers in georgewn, harvard, cambridge and the louvre i paris. >> rose: and their role is to make surthe world appciates e diversity and the depth of islamic membersp around the world in >> se. >> ros but the questn then becomes are those moderate elements of islam-- of which you would be refleive and which the royal family would be reflective-- speaking ou, making sure that more than anyone you are criticizing suicide bombers and those kinds
of thingwhich are setimes carried out the name of islam? >> restassured. see, the wt does not reay cor the criticism tt happens from saudi specifically. rose: well, tell us about it, then. >> il tell you. all the discusons being ound this somali guy who tried to bomb thisirplane above detroit. but hisather, his father... >> rose: turned him in. >> he went to t u.s. embassy and said"my son is terrorist in the making, please ke care ofhim." that guy represented islam an the 1.3 million muslims, not this guy who was goi to bomb this airplane above detroit. really. and i think we have... we have a role to really to prove to the west a the whole world that islam is n the terrorist
region at all. were peaceful. islam means peace. that's the ony of it. buthe problem is tt small number ofupremeijacked islam anbecause they shot and scream and they bark and theyommit terrorist acts, ty've hijacked the religion. >> rose: you'rehe ones who oughto be the most angry about that, as you know. >> you bet. you bet. governments, everybody has to do more. >> rose:o what doou want to do? what'sour plan? what you thi... you say you've got do me. what's "more" mean? >> whave to be more vocal about these terrorist acts. we have to tell the west we are against th. we do that publicly, but we have toven more. >>rose: makeure that the west knows. >> oh, sure,ecause now the west this that we d't mind what'sappening. r from the truth bause saudi arabia gets attacked, jordan gets attack, yemen is uer attack right n, bahrain is under attack, a those countrs have been attacked by those terrorists, by those exemists. so we ar in sync and we are in the same game, ball ge with you, the united states.
>> rose: so ere is the battle agains terrorism today? is it being ught effectively? >> i think fact tha the ts of teorism have really... not disappeared bu diminished substantially, and this single act of terrorismas taken place sides this attptedttack and actsof terrosm haseally ssipated almost in saudi arabia pves that we a on the right ack, but still a lo re work haso happen, because we have all these cells that are still dormant, buthey could come up anyere and any time for sure. we have to be vigilant. is thing is going to take another generati to weed the t completely. it's n going to endright now. we have to be vigilant and careful because th have a lot of new tactics. likeou've seen this underwear terroristhat aost blew this plane. rose: how does the araborld see e president,resident oba? >> wel you know, when he tk over ande gave his famous spch in cairo,xpectations nt up. but right now we are still
waiting. >> rose: you're waiting for what? >> we're waing for initiative from preside obama, mrs. hillary clion and mr. mihell who was on your program just last week to jp start th process. because the the unit states does not jump start the procs, no other country in the world is going to jp start it. period. >> rose:here could be no peace without the aive partipation of the unid states? there willot be. neve it like when president carter took activearticipation, he got a a saa dat and begin and he got the peace agreement signed at camp dad. we need active participation by present obama. hope heontinues with that after he gets h health ce siation behind him. >>ose: and theconomy. >> a the economy. >> rose: dai and dubai world. once we heard the evidence of... and saw the evidence the diffulty they wern, peoe began to say "where's e next dubai?" >> well, you kn, greece s cing some difficulty. >> rose: exactly right. but i say that, you know, nations don't go bkrupt, companies go bankrupt.
you can merge aompany or ut down but a nati will never go bkrupt. an clear the dubai maer is ve serious, but is containe >> rose: ctained because of abu dhabind support they're giving? >> one factor abu dab bye support was around $20 billion pl. so this is a temporary solution. but really it's not lik a crisis tt's going to affect globally. so it'very contained. but those banks, i said publiy that those mature banks that lend to those companies ty have toifferentiate between the soveren wealth, e sovereig security of dubai or abu dhabi oru.a.e. an lending to certain companiesn dubai. so you cannot say i thought i'm lending to dui, which means there's a sovereign grantee is impliethere. not true. so y may have other dubais or her greeces in the world, sure. you may have. >>ose: united states-- you have hea this many times--has
said we have to move awa from our dependee on fossil fs d dependence onsle. do you believe we can? >> 2 t depennce on oil will remain for tens of years to come. no doubt about that. >> rose: for a least half of this censurely. >> for se. but i think tre's a bter wa iean saudi arabia-- and king abdullah specifically-- tried to open dlogue and he was successfulo a certain extent by getting the consumers a producs to meetn saudi arabia, to find a way to get some fair price whereby the oil consuming countes don't ge hurty anxuberant high price. at the same time tho count flees the midd east and the whole other world at prode oil alsoon't geturt by havi a very low price oil. oil an important commodity. >> rose: but there's a finite supply of oil, is there not?
>> but it's going to take us anher 150 years 120, 150 years depending on today's consumpon so you have plentyf time until you find alternives to oil. but you know, we're not sing no there are wind, solar. many ways. look... >> rose: your point is you don't think it'soing to work for a long time. you don't think alternative energy sources will ... will havehe impact that you would want them tohave for significant nuer of decades. >>hat's for sure. every time therice of oil cos up we see a lotf hoopla arnd ethanol, every time the price go down, we see the whole thi subside. i think best thing would be t have the companies meet together and find aay whereby this i strategic and crucial commodity does not hurt the oil-conming
countries and does not iact the oil-producing companies by one day too high. onday it's $150, t next day it's $30. how can you prepare budget of a country based on that? >> rose: andow do you see the future ooil prices d wher it's going to g >> right now it'sovering around $80 and i don't s it going down soo because $80 withecession all over the world andou can imagine what'soing to happen wh the economy gets outf the recession. >> ros it will drive the pric of oil up. >> inevitably. >> rose: back up to $140, $150? >> hope not. we don't hant in saudi arabia. ouposition, wd like that hover around70, $80. no me. >> rose:o you like oil at around $70, $80. >> it will hurt the oil countries. it helpsshort-term. vice president a stabiling price wherit doesn't hur the west or o-consuming countries and do not impact the budget and planning of ose developing count wlez are stl being developed on a daily basis.
>>ose: how is sai arabia anging? >> wel saudi arabia under king abdull will a. is changing a lot politicall economal, financially, sially. many movemen are takinplace in saudi arabia. king abdullah of udi abia and saudi arabia i geral has a lotof constitueies. they haveot only the 26 milln population they he to look at. >> rose: because of mecca because of... >> exacy. 1.billion muslimsook at it and they have also... saudi arabia and a certain extent are anchor countrs in our region. so6 million sau disa 380 arabs and 1.35 million muslims they have to cater for. so there's a lo of constituencies to udi arabia's role locally, regionally and internatiolly. and we ke that very serious. >> rose:ow do you want to exercise that wer? i thinksaudis are pt of g-20 rightow with only our country there. saudi arabia is always invit to thebig mtings on the econical front and politica
front. >> rose: but wn the esident of thenited states went to see the king he didn't gethe kind of support he wanted inost recent visit. >> charlie, i was there. he got all pport. on theecord. i saw whating abdullah said to hi the. >> rose: tell me what he said? >> heaid we areery timistic about mr. obama and we believe he know iis needs and wishes and desires of the arab world and we hop he will deliver. but rest assud king abdullah and saudi arabia support him 100%. and you know wt? he stayed inhe ranch. obama ayed in the ranch. >> rose: but... no, i understand they had a lot of deep discussionand succesul discussions, i know. staying at the ranch does not mean successfulut... >> rose: soet's understand at was said because that goe against th conventional wisdom which was whi was that the esident expected to get more suort from the king in terms
of what he wante to do in playing t the u.s. role. >> look, i was not privyto the private meetg head to he between king abdullah and president obama. th met privately. rose: but you know the people in the room. >> i understand. we got tim presention that king abdulh is very happy and he said we're going to support obama no matter wt he wantso do. but there e minimum requests at you have to give the palestinian eir legitimate rights, like getting the state, ging them back jerusalem geing back their... finding a solution... and we were ry happy with obama initial reaction when we said settlements have to op before the pee process begins but obama had just ten over one year agowe have to give him me. but ihink tims running o also. >> rose: time's runningut? >> we cannot wait any longer >> tell me thas where the rubber meets the ground. what is it?
time is running o for themto what? >> we need peacen the middle east. the more the's no peace, the more extreme sism going to take over. the more you' going give has the clout antheower and the strength to sa look, thing isappening right now, we have to fight our way o. and yo strengths against... abu mazen, for exale, in the west bank. they become despete. >> ros but you know thiss well as i do. hamas is in part cated in damascus whe your greatfriend ru the country and your great friend has som iluence over hamas and could play a ry positive role trying to bring mas andatah together s they'r.. am i right orrong? >> wrong. >> rose: okay. (laughs) >> let's s tomorrow bashar gets hamas on board what's the use of getting on board? there's no peace process. they have no ptner. you can't tao alone, you you ed to tangle with someone.
>> rose: you'r israel. israelould say who do we negotiate with? there's a country is sit. hamas and fatah... there's nobody that... >> like the israeli governmt. >> rose: no, the israeli government is not spli there a democracy that asyou ow has a coalition government. >> rose: the moment you k for peace there a say settlements have to stop, look whatappens to israel. look, i can guarantee y thats... i you extct from them any log, any reason, all the palestinian people will hor around abu mazen. but right now people ar saying look, look at the united states, bush haseft, you have obama now and no noeacerocess. thing on track yet. israel has the upper hand. >> rose:our answer to the conflict in the middle et between the israelis and palestinians is that the uted states must pressu the israelis to do more. that's your swer. >> th's my answer. because all the power is in the hands of israel. they have the land intheir
possession. they hav... they have ga. everhing is inheir hand. >> rose: why don't you influence thepalestinians more so that th can... so that the iaelis el more secure. that's the problem. >> let mtell you what my oer friend told me, abu mazen, the presiden of palestine. he said we are ready, forget hamas, let him make peace with me right now. >> rose: you can't forge hamas, can you? >> mach make ace with the wes bank. hama the powercomes from the fact thathere that there's stalemate, staation, they capitalize on thestalemate and stagnation that there'so ace. give it a tr givet a try. israelas the uer hand. they'ra stronger force among all our couries combined. it's israe and mazen told "i'm ready for peace i'm ready." >>ose: what about refusing to recognize the ste of iael's righto exist? >> sure the paltinians... u
mazen for su, yes, officially. >> rose: but i'm saying has refuses to... re you have... >> for n, yes. fonow, yes. >> rose: youhink they will change? >> becse hamas is as strong its people. if its people go back to be under thepower of mazen, if th peacis in progress and is imminentthey'll move. they are fed up. i mean, the way they're livin there ght now is disgustg. i've been there three times. the poverty level, 30% 40%. >> re: in gaza, where? >> i talking about gaza. west bank things are improving there. >> rose: they are. >> the economy is growing6%, 7%. >> rose: and what a you doing to sport the prime minister? >> o yes, we have fayyad is a good man. >> rose: and what he's tryin to do cree some model of governme there is the way to go in yourjudgment? >> the modelhere isappening ready and israel is cooperatinwith them. but not to the extent they have full-fledgedeace.
>> rose: is now, seems to be many people belie, the best way to go because it is changing on the ground. >> correct. and it's role model and ey're growing 6%, 7 every year. >> ros what are you dng to help the economic developnt. >> oh, we all suppt them, oh, yes. we are investedn three companies over therehat really a domint force in palesne and weive them allhe support they need for sure, yes, y. i've beethere. u know, i meane gave em some time ago a pvate plane, we gave themoney,clinics, hospitals. always have charity th em. >> rose: to lp themsucceed in terms of creatin a viable litical force. you bet. rose: can deal with the israel lis. >> you belt. and that's whate need. and israel is ing the same. >> rose:they're pling back from some... >> yes. >> rose: weaven't talked abou the ri of china. i mean, you're a man with businessnterests and the world. do see you china today? >> schin a forceo beeckoned th. chin has just replaced germany as being the biggest exporter in
the worl ina has just repced th united states aseing the biggest car buyer in the wor and china is going toeplace japan in being the cond biggt economy in the world. china for real, they're coming and what they' doing all over the globe i incredible. ey have $2.5 trillion of foreign reserves. this countrys aorce to be reoned with and buffett said in yourprogram, their g.d.p. will ways be above the unitedtates. maybnot necessarily the g.p. r capita. >> rose: rht. for sure. by the year 2050 they nave largest any the world. >> b not necessarily g.p. r capita. so china is a big force to be reckoned witso right now they are concentrating on increasin their g.p., g.d.p. per cap tashgsixing the interl oblems and issuesut eventually china is going to ask for a political price. right now the uned states leads e world a most of the time we have been them but i thinkhina will translate that powefrom being a economic force to political force.
>> rose: and i that good or d? or i it jusgoing to hapn? >> inevitae. i think china still... it's a strong for but not a stng foe politically. rose: it wantso use that force to crea more economic wealth so it canse that wealth to in some cas ease the sial teions that might exist >> you bet. >> rose: you saw what google did and you knowechnology. what do you mak of that? >> well, y know on one hand, if any company goes to country it has to spect the rul of that country no matt h different it isrom the united states. now i undersnd that ur aner is that well, the chise government gotnvolved. >> rose: what do you think? >> i think we don't know the aner yet. but i thin you know, china is china. >> rose: what does that mean "china is china"? >> if yowant to go there, you have to play by their rus. >>ose: but the rules were... that's nothat was ppening,
playing the rules. gole was there and they found out that... >> i understand. bu china a communist cotry politilly speaking. although econocally it's catalist to the bone. >> rose: right. >> you have to massage you try china slowly but surely. >> rose: some peoe, james j knows you mahave read, i begin beginning to say the may a bubble in china... >> a i also read mr. friean's gnarl the "new york times" saying forget it. so i'm with mr. fedman it was a go article. >> ros do you stay up all night reading like i do? >> he gave me a good reply. i lo it. i stick with friedman reply. he was on your program, byhe y. very gd episode. >> rose: he said many things, but basically tse who s china may not be as song as we thk it is, those people are wrong. you look at chin and yousee nothing but a country that's going to get stronger? >> o yes, n doubt. i digree with chan knows
comptely. and i agree with mr. freedma complete lift thk god nextay jumped on him. >> rose:hat do you think of america and our future >>merica is down not out. >> rose: but that's not good >> i know,but you'r down now. >> rose: dow inhat way? >> there was a book written about the islamic wor "what went wrong". i think rightow you could write a book out the united states "what went wrong" potically, economically, financially, you know, the crisis that u're in right now. you're aess. new a mess in the uted states. i have to be honest wi you. i love the united stat. i admire the united states >> rose:nd you're heavily invested here. >> yeah, sur the ited states is the leade of the wld. it's going tbe the leadeof e world for many yea to come. forget china's goingto come out. but you're down. i me... >> rose: "down" mean what? >> i tel you. when you have country has $14 trillion of cumulative debt and its g.p. around 4 billion and both competingwho's going
to growaster,hat's not good. >> ros debt or g.d.p. >> yes! and when you have these budget deficits of a trillion dollars going for the foreseeable future that's not accepble. when you have this economi crisis that really hit you very badly and was contagious the ole world, you know things are not where they were in the ited states but you can sti get t of it. >> rose: how n we get out of it? >>ell, i think we're betng on obama that' going to have the good policies. at least hs acknowledging these problems. before you used toe murky about th issu, therwas no reity. right w he's saying that we have all those ople that are uninsured, we'regoing ensur them. >> rose: health care refm. >> y, health care reform, i understand. i mean... >> rose: his populary is declining, a you know. >> i understd. i derstand. he's taking tough decisis. now, i only wish the united states the best. i'm t an americ man, i'm a saudi, b i love the united states and i admire t united ates and i'mublic with that, i'm vocal about that. sometime this is puts me in ouble. i don't mi, i will speak my
principles. so the united states haso do a lot of worknd i only hope and wish good for the united stas. >> rose: here's what ihear you saying. lee kwanaid the same thing at the same table. most of the people hknows worry more aut the american defit, debt, than any other issuabout america. >> yes. >> rose: can we dealith the ssive debt that we're facing? >> $14 trillion of cumulative de, no matter how bigour onomy is, is big. and guesswhat? you' adding tot for the foreseeable future around arillion dollarsevery ye. sothing these happen there. >> rose: what should happen? >> well, i'm not the u.s. president. rose: no, butou... >> iay you have to accomplish... >> rose: it's in your ierest for the u.s. to ve a althy economy. >> my worry is that taxes have to incree eventually. there'no doubt about that. ani hope that they increas not when you have a ression whereby the impact wil be minimized. taxes ve to be raised.
doubt about thatn my mind. across the board >> rose: a value added tax? capital gains tax. >> whaver it is. taxes are goingto increase ininnocently. >> rose:'s a hard political snell amera. >> i understd. ry dangerous. but i see nowhereway out o that. yore going to have to pay this debt eventually. this can no go without being paid. >> rose: it'she economic reality. >> f sure. >> re: bewe went too lonfor being consuming socty and not a savings society. >> you'rebeginning to be now. >> rose: but tre are also t peop who have been paching th and are arguing strongly that we need financial form he. regulatory reform. are you supporting the relatory reform thatpeople like paul volck andthers are suggesting? >>ell, i mean, e crisis tt u went through here, y almost had the meltdown her when lehman brothers collses and bear stearns followed by a g bank... >> rose: j.p. morgan. >> j.p. morgan,nd then merrill
lynch absorbedy bank of america and goldman sachs and morgan stanley, although theye healthier but on the vge of collapse also and citigroup also i an something wen wrong for sure here. no doubt abo that. and you can'tjust put thelame onhe bank and bankanagement you have tshare that between ba managementand regulators and i think you have to have reform, for sure. it's about time to get it right this time. >> rose: saudi arabia sunni country. >> we're shiite al. >> ros but the majority the. certain shi'a country. iraq majority shi'a. jordan sunni. there used to be me great concern that would be manifest in iraq a kind of civil war between shi'a and sun. ha that... has that been iminated, number on >> you mean in sau arabia? >> rose: in iq.
in iraq. that conflt. and secondly, is the idea some great conflicetween the nni population and the shi'a populaon in various different untries, has it gone away? at risk, thatonflict, that... whever it meant. >> for sureit's not gone away. actually, itust beg. let's take yemen. >> ros exactly right. >> yemen is a majorit sunni, a minority are shiite andthers e huetys. look what' happening right now. we have some of those iurgents coming to saudi arabia and we have war right now from the south tacking through yemen and in the north saudi araa. so f sure it's not... is simmering and itould pop up elseere. although in iraq this has subsed a little bit beuse they are ting to fight the wars throu parliament and through the democracy there's prevailing over there. this time bb could happe anywhere. in brain, a big population of
shiite, you havet in saudi arabia, but saudi arabia thanks god that they' very much assimilatein the system and part of theaudi system so thanksgod nothing there. but it's a time bomb because iran is not plang at all and they're gettinthis insurgent move. >> rose: all t arab countries that i know fear iran fear iran. especially if gets the nuclear capacity. so what are they preparedo do? >> well irans a very strong power n our region. >> rose: and should b recognized for that. >> you better believet, 70, 80 million people ovethere. >> rose:nd a huge reservoirf l. >> sure. and they're a very rich country, although not develed at all beuse iran it loo like a third-class country. >> well, iraq does in terms of its oil. but go ahead. >> ros >> so iran is a threat and we're coerned about that. >> rose: but how do you see e
threat from iran? >> if iran gets atomic bo, nuclear bombs, it's going begin dictating i conditions. >> rose: ando what should the rest othe world... >> the resof the world... >> re: do. >>hey should ute through the u.n. and tak veryough resolutis as you took against peshg. >> rose: he you talked tothe chinese abouthis? ve you talked to the soviets... to the russns about this? you kn where they stand on strong sanctions, don't you? >> for now, y. buteventually they think this also, it's not good for em to have nuear bos because they don't want to have them destabilize d the interest of the russians, the interests of the chese coinswidz the other three perment u.n. members: united states, france and britain. you ow, no one can lead but the united stas. it's very complicated matter. i think yo need have uniformity among all the... i met with sarkozy, for example. d he told me we need to have sanctions against iraq.
ry immineny. and he's willing t participa with the russians and... >> you can't have sanctns by thsecurity council of the u.n. unless you have the cnese and the russians sign off. >> you bet. you t. you are seeing indications tt are accepting of that. and the more intransient in is, the more amenible the chinese and russians will be. >> rose: andhat's the possibility that the iranians will get theomb before the sanction.. i mean, there's a windowf opportunity here. how close do you think they are. >>ased on the sdies i read among the c.i.a. and other intellence, they are not there yet now. but the direction theye moving in... >> rose: how long d you think they are, thoh? within seval years or... >> two or three ars. they can do it. i mean, look at... pakistan had it, iran had it, iean india had it s iran could have it also. it's not that complicated. south afra has it d they gave it up. >> rose: right. >> and libya gave up its... >>h, yes.
they gave it u for free. (laughs) >> rose: saudi abia and democracand any changen the political dwrrb dough do y... >> see, the word "demoacy". >> rose: g ahead, talk about that. >> in iam we have anher word shura. and this began 1,400 years a. and it's lamic. ura began waybeyond the magna carta. it began in the u.k. and western third of the unitestates. n saudi arabia we have ma sure t shuraho is o parliament eqvalentnd no decisions taken by the executive branch until i goes to it. for sure..you cannot have full-fledged docracy isaudi arabia like the rest. >> rose: and the unid states and others should not be proting mocracy... it's model democracy as appropriate for anyone other thanhe united ates.
>> rose: >> y will love this one. i have having lufrng will lee kwan you. i toldim "you're friend. i have a question, what kd of democry do you have ining sne" he said prie, i have my own democracy, not the american democracy or western demracy bui have democracy f sure. but it's notoing to be the way it's in my country. and democracy in sinpore is not the american typ or british pe or english te or french type democracy. so really. i mean, we can never just transplant democracy. >> rose: it's a pleasure to have you re. >> is a pleasure,harlie. >> rose: you leave wh us a lot of this to talk about in tms of america's economic future yet at the me time i hear y clearlyaying thatou people that you know in your region, including ur own country, are lking tohe
united stes, even though you worry about it to exercise leadership now. it's very important thathe united states. >> getsts house in order. >> rose:... gets its hse in order to itake leadership >> if yoare weak economically you cannot be strong politically. >> get your economic house in order so y can exercise geopolitical. >> no doubt out that. >> rose: thank you for cing. >> pleasure be with you always. >> thank you for joining us for the ur. seyou next time.